An interview with Zhang Qingfang about the trial of Xu Zhiyong (4)

(回答有关沉默的问题):
(About why kept silent during the trial)

中国人大都能够理解我们为什么沉默。西方人理解不了,他们认为法庭是一个说理的地方;刑事法庭应该控辩双方激烈交锋,大家都把自己的意见充分说出来,最终法院才能做出一个正确的结论。但是中国的法庭显然不是一个说理的地方,特别是他这个案子。我们为什么沉默,因为这个案件,要把真相讲出来,必须要让那些了解真相的人到现场。但了解真相的人或者现在关押着,不允许他们出庭;或者说被警方实际控制在家中。既然真相被阻挡在法庭之外,我们在法庭上又能用什么样的方式把真相揭示出来呢?既然法庭没有给这个机会,那我们是用沉默的方式来抗议。这是我们的一种意见表达,有一个谚语:辩解就等于承认了一半。面对他们这样一个不公不义的审判,说话反而降低了这个悲剧的力量。我们只能用沉默的方式,才能把我们的抗议和不满表达出来。
Most Chinese people will understand why we kept silent, but not western people, since they believe that the court is a place to argue and reason; criminal court is the place that argument and counter-argument shall be the most violent, and everyone speaks out his opinion, then the court can make a just decision. However it is clear that Chinese court is not a place to reason, especially a case like his. The reason why we kept silent is because to speak the truth needs those who know the truth to be present. Those who know the truth are either detained in detention house or controlled at home by police and not allowed to be present in court. When the truth is blocked out of the court, how can we prove it in the court? Since the court did not give us the chance to prove the truth, so we protested with our silence. This is an expression of our attitude. There is a saying: trying to explain is to give a 50% acknowledgement. Facing such an unjust trial, speaking could lessen the influence of the tragedy. Only by being silent, we can show our protest and anger.

审判过程中,法官们关心的不是案件的真相是什么,不是有罪还是无罪;他们想的是匆匆地赶快把这场戏演完,完成领导交代的任务,赶快过去。就是这么一回事。
During the trial, the judges did not care what is the truth, or guilty or not guilty; they only want to hurry to the end of the performance, to complete the task assigned by their leaders, to make it end as soon as possible. That is it.

艾:代理这个案子也有压力吧?
Ai: Do you have pressure to be the defense lawyer in this case?

张:体制内朋友都说,你要做,只谈法律问题,不要谈政治问题。但即便是这样,我也打算,我这一年,就以休息为主,少和他们体制内的人往来。因为你往来,人家也有压力,自己也不愿意。休息一段时间再说。等到他判完以后,我就先沉默一段时间,不再谈这个事情了。现在一定要谈。因为现在就是让大家了解许志永嘛。等到做完以后,我们能做的事情,就是帮着崔筝,把这段时间过去。就做这个工作,就是私人之间的一个帮助。
Zhang, My friends within the system told me, “if you want to take the case, only talk about law, but not politics.” However even if it is as such, I also plan, this year, I will take more rest, and make less contact with people within the system. If I get in touch with them, I will give them pressure, this is not good. I will take some rest and let this case pass for a while. When the case is decided, I will be quiet for a while, will not talk about it anymore. But now I must talk about it, because it is the time for the public to know Xu Zhiyong. When this is done, what is left for us to do is to help Cui Zheng, after this period. I will do it, to help as a friend.

到现在我还是想着,发生重大变革的时机还没有到。我劝过许志永和丁家喜,他们进去之前,我请他们吃饭我都劝过,我说你们要给新人时间,让国人观察他们是否真心改革。他们俩特别是丁家喜,很乐观,似乎民主社会马上就要到来。我认为还得有个七八年的时间,我比他们跟体制内的人接触更多一些。
Until now, I still think, it is not time for a big change to happen yet. I persuaded Xu Zhiyong and Ding Jiaxi, before they were arrested. I told them that they should give some time to the new leaders and let the people see if they would launch real reforms. They, esp. Ding Jiaxi, were very optimistic, believing that a democratic society was coming immediately. I think it needs another seven or eight years’ time. I have more contact with people within the system.

我跟志永说我想过给你辩护,但我没想到现在就要站出来给你辩护。可是人生不是设计出来的。有时该你担当该你出头露面,还是要担当。这个事情出来了,我们该做的要做,尽管有压力还是要做。但我还没有勇气做志永第二。
I told Zhiyong that I wanted to defend for you, however I had never thought it came so soon. But life is not designed. Sometimes it is time for us to stand out, then we must. When this happens, we must do what we shall do, even if there is pressure. But I do not have the courage to be Zhiyong the second.

包括崔筝,她自己的想法也是。她理解志永也支持志永,但是孩子要和政治隔离开。所以我们也没有发布孩子的照片,不要让她成为一个政治小孩。她生活该怎么过怎么过。对志永我们也是,该怎么帮怎么帮。
To Cui Zheng, she thinks the same. She understands Zhiyong and supports him, however their child must be separated from politics. This is why we did not release any photo of the baby, we do not want her to be a child of politics. She will have her own life. To Zhiyong, we will still provide our help.

但是我们不牺牲并不等于说没有其他人牺牲,我知道,现在的中国,愿意为政治牺牲的人多的是。所以他们想太平是很难太平的,因为你们做了那么多摆不到台面的事情,具体体制上那么多非常极端的不公正存在。你自己又不主动去改,你怎么能让人不抗争呢?
However that fact that we do not dare to do does not mean that no other person is willing to sacrifice. I know, today in China, there have been too many people who are willing to sacrifice for political change. So it is difficult for the government to control everything since they have been done too many things that cannot be put on table. There has been too much extreme injustice existing in this system. If the government does not want to change it, how can it make others not to fight for change?

包括体制内部也会变,我跟志永都讲了:不要着急,君子居安以俟命。他上来以后大家都在观察是吧,你要给人家一段时间。过一段时间他不改,或者说他做的和说的不一样,马上他的威信就降下来了。我说你想一想胡和温,当时威信多高?持续了几年时间,甚至可以说2006、2007年民望都是可以的吧?那时候经济也发展,碰上世界经济上升周期了。好多人真的认为中国就按现在方式发展也有希望,不像西方乱糟糟的民主政治,我们现在不一样发展吗?胡温当时也很自信。但是一旦经济降下来,积累的社会问题浮现出来以后,对他们的历史评价就不一样了。
Even with regard to the system, there will be change within it. I told Zhiyong, no rush, gentleman waits in peace till his mission comes. He came to power, everyone watches. He shall be given some time. When the time passes, he still does not change, or what he does differs from what he says, then his reputation will decrease quickly. Thinking about Hu & Wen, what a high prestige they got at the beginning. It lasted for a few years, until about 2007, public opinion was positive. The economy was growing, together with the growing world economy. Many people really thought that China could develop as it did, it was hopeful, it differed from the messy western democratic political system, we were developing well. The leaders were also very optimistic at that time. However once the economy slowed down, the accumulated social problems emerged, the historical evaluation of them was different.

现在的领导人也是,我们当然不怀疑他们有改革的善意和决心。但是他们上台前,在现有体制下并没有机会培养他们掌舵的能力。最怕的是自己没有头脑,也不是公平竞争的结果,就靠着一个家族、或者说一种势力的荫庇上来,却有强烈的马上要就掌控一切的欲望,四面树敌,这么搞将来肯定是要碰壁的。一旦碰壁以后,会不会进退失措?那将来究竟怎么办,这不好说。
The current leadership is the same. We do not doubt their goodwill and determination of reforming. However before they came to power, the existing system could not have the opportunity to make them have the full capacity to steer the country. The worst thing is that they do not clear mind: knowing that they come to power without going through competitive and just election, instead depending on their family power or some other protection power, they still have a strong will to control everything, create enemies everywhere; this will lead them go into trouble sooner or later. When this happens, will they be in a dilemma of having difficulty to go either forward or backward? Then how shall China do, it is difficult to say.

后记:四天之后,判决结果出来,许志永博士被判处刑期四年。目前他已提出上诉。
Epilogue: Four days later, the court judgement was out. Dr Xu Zhiyong was sentenced to four years imprisonment. At present, he already requested for an appeal.

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