An interview with Lawyer Zhang Qingfang about the trial of Xu Zhiyong (3)

(记者:我听说是他在讲新公民运动的基本理念时被打断了?)
(Journalist: I heard that he was interrupted when he talked about the basic principles of New Citizen Movement?)

不是,他在讲到财产公示的时候。他说世界上一百多个国家都有财产公示制度,中国为什么不能引进?你们这些高高在上的人究竟害怕什么?你们在担心什么?在讲到这个的时候就被打断了。
No, when he talked about disclosing officials’ assets. He said that in this world more than 100 countries have established the assets disclosure system, why cannot China do it? What are those higher up there afraid of? What are you worrying about? Then he was asked to stop.

我们是全程保持了沉默,我们会在庭审后陆续地把我们的意见表达出来。
We remained silent during the whole process of the trial, we will write out our opinion gradually after the trial.

艾:你对他个人如何评价,特别是这次通过代理他的案件?
Ai: How do you think about Xu Zhiyong, esp. through being his defense lawyer this time?

张:我对他的评价一直都没有变,志永是个有理想有担当也有能力的人。他不是一个书呆子,不是不食人间烟火、为了自己的理想不顾社会的承受程度、不顾中国的国情硬来的一个人。他也知道,中国尽管存在这么多的社会问题,但也不可能一步解决。必须通过渐进的方式,但是不能因为不能一蹴而就我们就不做;所有的人都三缄其口,有问题也不指出来,有困难就不去做。这不行。
Zhang, My evaluation of him has never changed. Zhiyong is a person who has ambitions and who is capable of working towards them. He is not a bookworm, a hermit away from the human world; he is not one who works stubbornly in spite of whether the society can take it and disregarding the real situation of China. He knows that although there are many social problems in China, they cannot be solved once in all. They can only be solved gradually, however this does not mean that if they cannot be solved immediately, then we shall all remain silent, not pointing out problems, and restrain from taking actions since there is difficulty. This will not work.

这个社会总需要有人站出来,社会才能进步。从某种程度上来讲,他也是有宗教情怀的人,他也相信天命。这一点上,他心中还是有个上帝的。我也给他提出来,你的上帝究竟是第一推动力,还是说像老子那个道,在天地之前世界存在的本源?是这么一个第一时间、第一来源、第一动力,还是一个人格神?他说他的上帝和基督教的上帝不完全一样。但是他也认为有一个主宰宇宙、主宰人类发展的力量。这个力量更接近于人格神。有很多人,他的使命是注定的;他也有点相信。他认为哪怕遭遇再多苦难,对自己都是一种天命。他是相信这个东西的。所以,这也给他提供了一种支撑。否则可能也像王功权一样,选择妥协换自由。你要没有支撑的话,在中国这个环境中你很难坚持下来。
Some people must stand out, then the society will progress. From certain perspective, he is a man of religious feeling; he believes in destiny. At this point, there is a god in his mind. I asked him, is your god the first cause or the ‘Tao’ by Laozi, that is the origin of the world before the creation of the heaven and the earth? Is it a first time, first source, first driving force, or a personal god? He said his god is not completely the same as the God in Christianity. However he thinks that there is a power in charge of the universe and the development of our human world. This power is more like a personal god. To many people, their missions are destined. He believes this. He thinks that even if there will be more suffering, it is his destiny. This has given him support. Otherwise, he could act like Wang Gongquan, to compromise a bit for freedom. If you do not have something to sustain yourself, it is very difficult to be persistent in today’s China.

但是他这个信仰你说是不是所有人都赞同,也不是。他太太跟我聊过,她说她就不赞同。我也劝他,我说你对宗教问题发表意见一定要慎重。因为宗教问题在中国还是比较敏感的。但是他还是很真诚的,他也没掩饰这个问题。他就是这么一个人。许志永如果不走这条路,他做律师,他搞社会活动,他在官场上,都是一个很有能力的人。这个人是不简单。
However his belief is not really agreed by everyone. His wife talked with me and said she did not agree with him. I also told him that he should be very cautious in commenting about religion, since it was still a very sensitive topic in China. But he is very sincere, never trying to evade this topic. He is just such a person. If Xu Zhiyong had not taken this path, if he had been a lawyer, a social activities organizer, or a government officer, he would have been very capable of doing it well. He is a remarkable person.

艾:他知道有孩子了但是没看到是吗?
Ai, he knows that he has a baby now but he has never seen her, isn’t it?

张:我给他……他看到了照片,给他看了照片。一段小视频也都给他看了。
Zhang, I showed him… he saw the picture, showed him the picture, and a short video.

艾:看了他什么表情呢?
Ai, What is his expression after seeing them?

张:他当时还是流泪了。毕竟是,孩子出生嘛,他也不能尽自己的责任。这个事情出来以后,好多企业家包括国外的一些人,给他家里人表示,想捐助。他爱人还是比较自立,她觉得,我还是有能力来养家的;能够自食其力,不愿意接受。就这问题我也问过志永的意见,我说怎么办?志永也感觉到很愧疚。志永他不是一个搞钱的人,这么多年家里的房子还有六十多万房贷,每个月要还四千多。我也跟他爱人提过,四千多也不是一个多大的数,你就把还款帐号给我,我安排财务给你还,他爱人也不接受。
Zhang, At that moment he cried. He could not bear a father’s responsibility when the baby was born. When this happened, many entrepreneurs, including some people abroad, wanted to support his family, with some donation. His wife is independent, she thinks that she is capable of making a living for the family, and does not want to accept it. I asked Zhiyong about this. He felt very sorry. He is not a person who makes a lot of money, for so many years, they still have a 600k yuan house loan, each month they have to pay about 4000yuan. I told his wife to give the loan account to me, 4000yuan is not a huge amount, I can arrange the payment, his wife did not accept it.

我们现在也在想,怎么样通过一种比较合适的方式来帮助她。因为你再自立,毕竟是一个人。她在媒体,收入也不高。孩子出生以后,这个花费也是很大的。我说你不要小瞧,在北京孩子花钱是很多的,我们都是这么过来的。我给许志永个别的朋友也谈过,我们准备以他夫人能接受的方式照顾她,不要让她有经济压力。至少要帮着志永照顾好家。因为能做到也就这么多。
Now we also think, in which way we can help her more properly. No matter how independent, she is just one person, working in the media, the income is not high. When the baby was born, more expenses will incur. In Beijing, children need a lot of money, we all experienced it. I also talked with other friends of Zhiyong, we plan to help her in the ways that she will accept, and we will not let her have any economic burden. At least we will help Zhiyong to take care of his family, since this is what we can only do.

其实昨天我是很难受的。他不讲话也就罢了。昨天在法庭上,他最后陈词的时候,我就想到,这么长时间能够坚持,其实他的愿望也是大家共同的愿望、我们这个年龄的人共同的愿望。他想做的事情,也是我们都想做的。但是大家都没有这种勇气,只有他站出来了。我们是想帮他,但是他所承受的这种压力和痛苦,我们是没有办法分担的。
In fact I felt very sad yesterday. It is fine if he does not talk. But yesterday, when he started the closing statement, I started to think, he has persisted for so long, and in fact his wish is just our common wish, the common wish of our generation. What he wants to do, is also what we want to do. However, we do not have the courage, and only he stands out. We just want to help him, but the pressure and pain he suffers, nobody can help to share.

昨天在法庭上他那么一讲就讲到了十年以来的过程,我控制不住,真的控制不住。在法庭上,当时也流泪了。法官也说了,张律师你怎么不能控制自己的情绪?我说你们可能觉得这不是多大的事,但是对我来讲,想到同学之间的感情,这是非常难受的一件事。但是最终理智还是能够控制自己的感情,我们觉得,他这个付出也是值得的。
Yesterday he talked about the process in the past ten years, I could not control myself, really could not. In the court, I also cried. The judge said, Lawyer Zhang, how come you did not control your emotion? I said, for you, probably it was nothing, but for me, thinking about our friendship as classmates, it was making me very sad. However, finally consciousness overcame emotion. We think his sacrifice is worthwhile.

因为,不需要太久,你不用考虑现在官场上的人是怎么考虑的、常委们是怎么考虑的。你就想生活已经发展到这么一个时代了,大家都是用的苹果,都是用的三星手机;这个系统都是微软的系统。通讯方式都是一样,微信这么普遍。特别八零后九零后,乃至新出生的这些孩子,他们接触的环境,和国际上和其他国家没有什么两样。技术手段、生产手段、生活方式和其他国家都是一样的。为什么管理国家的方式有这么大的差别,这是不可能的。
Because, not too long, no need to think how the people in the positions think about, how the politburo members think about. Just think about we have arrived at such a time that everyone uses Apple, Samsung; and they all use Microsoft. The same communications method, Wichat is very popular. Especially, those born in the 80s and 90s, and those born even later, the environment they will encounter, is no different than other countries in this world. The technology, production methods, living style are also the same as other countries. Then why the way of ruling the country is grossly different? This is impossible.

你如果想想二十年后,八零后七零后作为管理国家的主体的时候,大家能接受什么规则?我们就必然会得出一个结论:中国肯定会发生变化的。但是如果没有人来推动,它还是铁板一块。他做了一个推动者,这就够了。他承担了这一代人应该承担的使命。我们还是为他欣慰的,也骄傲。
If you think about 20 years later, when those born in the 80s and 90s become the mainstays of our country, what rules will people follow? We will then have a conclusion that China is going to change for sure. However if there is no one to push for it, it will remain a piece of solid metal. He has been one facilitator, this is enough. He has borne the mission that our generation should bear. We feel gratified and proud for him.

Advertisements
This entry was posted in Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s