An interview with lawyer Zhang Qingfang about the trial of Xu Zhiyong (2)

艾:您自己怎么评价许志永倡导的新公民运动呢?
Ai: How do you think about the New Citizen Movement initiated by Xu Zhiyong?

张:这是中国将来必然要走的路。当然现在很多人还可能觉得比较敏感,也不是所有的人都同意他这么做。中国人受了多年专制的教育,大家骨子里就认为万一你这么搞搞乱了,影响稳定怎么办?我们正常的生活怎么办?那其实中国不能总是这么一种状态,你还是要逐步地吸引、鼓励公民社会参与国家的管理。因为这个社会现在太复杂了,靠一个人哪怕他再英明,也不可能英明到所有的决策都是正确的,什么问题他都能找到正确的答案。实际上问题的解决本身就是要在不断的碰撞之中,让不同的诉求都能够自由地表达出来,大家在沟通甚至是争论的过程中找答案,期间甚至不排除有一些社会动荡,都是有可能的。因为你强压着积累了太多矛盾。
Zhang: This is a path that China must go. Of course at present many people still think it is a sensitive issue, and not everyone agrees that he should do it. Chinese people have been under the authoritarian education for years, many people think if you promote it and it will cause chaos, which will affect stability, then what shall we do? How about our normal lives? In fact China cannot always be like this, the civil society must start to be encouraged to participate in state governance. This society is so complicated that no matter how wise one is, he cannot be wise enough to make all decisions right and find correct answer for every question. In fact the solution of our problems itself is a process of collisions, during which, different opinions shall be freely expressed, and answers are pursued in our communications and even arguments. There might be some social instability during this process, it is possible since there has been too much contradiction accumulated for years that is controlled but not solved.

你看中国现在城乡矛盾、户籍隔离、包括财产分配不公的问题、官员腐败的问题,这些光靠执政党自己,哪怕我们的领导人再有决心都没有用。用极权的方式解决不了,因为中国现在好多问题,都是极权产生的。所以极权它是原因,它不可能是解决问题的一个好的方法。
In China, we have all kinds of problems, the urban-rural difference, household registration and separation, unjust distribution of wealth, corrupted officials, no matter how determined our leaders are, these problems cannot be solved by the ruling party itself. To use totalitarian power cannot solve it, since many problems are caused by the totalitarian power. Thus, it is impossible that totalitarianism can be a good solution to the problems.

这一点我们都能够看得透,只不过,现在要说许志永他被审判了,就一呼百应全国人民都站出来,可能还没有到这个时候。但最终,不会太久,中国还是要朝着民主宪政的方向去发展。因为一个民族总要进步,特别像中国这样的民族。过去严刑峻法都阻挡不了人们去追求更理想的社会,都不能阻挡人们表达对政府的不满;你现在……
Everyone sees this clear. However, it is probably not time that all Chinese people will stand out just because now Xu Zhiyong is on trial. But it will not be too long; China has to develop towards democracy and constitutionalism. All nations must progress, especially a nation such as China. In the past, cruel penalties could not obstruct people to seek their ideal society and express their anger upon the government. Now…

说白了中国也不是完全没有法治。经过这么多年,中国的法治已经发展了。政府对他再恨之入骨,也不能用绑架、暗杀,用这些摆不到桌面上的方式。还是要通过一个庭审,尽管这个庭审非常不公正,但是形式上它还是说在法制的框架之下来解决。并且最初他们希望用煽动颠覆国家政权罪定许志永,但最终能够收罗到的一点点证据也就是“扰乱公共场所秩序”罪;最高刑五年。五年的刑罚,不要说对许志永,对好多人,根本起不到一个威慑的作用。
On the other hand, China is not completely without rule of law. After so many years, the legal system has been developing. No matter how badly the government hates one person, underground measures, such as abduction or assassination cannot be used. There must be a court trial, though the trial is unjust, however empirically it is dealt within the legal framework. Also originally the authority wanted to use the crime of subverting state power to charge Xu Zhiyong, but later only gathered a little evidence of disrupting public order with the highest sentence of five years. Five years, not mentioning towards Xu Zhiyong, to many people, it will not even play an intimidation role.

据我了解,好多功成名就经济上也没有压力的这些社会中坚,他们为了追求理想,也会走许志永的道路。所以我觉得这么一个判刑,对官方没有什么正面的作用。在形象上、国际评价上,包括对国内这些进步人士的影响上,都只有负面的作用。
As far as I know, many people who have achieved in fame and in wealth will follow Xu Zhiyong’s path to seek their ideal world. I feel that this trial will not play any positive role for the government. It will only affect negatively upon China’s image, and its international reputation.

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